The Okra Pod Cast

2021 Okra Dreams (with Ira Wallace, Mark Tancig and Sidney Nicholson)

• Season 1 • Episode 6

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2021 Okra Dreams: After a winter break, we are launching straight into spring. E6 focuses on growing okra and the upcoming season, but there’s plenty of food talk to get us dreaming about those hot harvest days. Mark Tancig, a UF Extension Agent, shares expert advice on growing okra and talks nematodes.  We discuss okra varieties with Ira Wallace of SESE as well as food, memories and culture. And we close with some beautiful stories from Sidney Nicholson, who recounts his, often amusing, childhood responses to his okra-loving mother! 

Meet the Guests

Mark Tancig is the Commercial/Residential Horticulture Extension Agent for Leon County, FL, where he shares research-based best practices for sustainable landscape management. Mark also coordinates the Leon County Master Gardener Volunteer Program. His articles are regularly published in the Tallahassee Democrat. Contact.

Information About Nematodes:

Ira Wallace is a worker/owner of the cooperative Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. Ira serves on the boards of the Organic Seed Alliance, and the Virginia Association for Biological Farming. Ira is an organizer of the Heritage Harvest Festival at Monticello. She was named a 2019 Great American Gardener by the American Horticultural Society. She is author of the Timber Press Guide to Vegetable Gardening in the Southeast and a subsequent  state specific book series.

Sidney Nicholson retired from a long career in law enforcement in NYC and became an after-school coordinator at Cornerstone Learning Community in Tallahassee, FL, where he mentored children, young people, and adults alike. He is a father and grandfather, and husband and partner to his childhood sweetheart, Gloria. He enjoys life outdoors and spending time with family and friends.

Participate in the Whidby White CSS Project.

We hope you enjoyed the music outtakes from, The Okra Song, courtesy of Hot Tamale.

Subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast fix and follow us on Instagram and Facebook.

Email questions and comments to theokrapodcast@gmail.com. Also, consider supporting us with as little as $1 a month via Patreon.

Thanks from your Co-hosts, Chris Smith and Rebekka White! 


Episode 6: 2021 Okra Dreams

Rebekka
Welcome, you're listening to The Okra Pod Cast, a show dedicated to Okra and the people at connects. This is Rebekka White. 

Chris And this is Chris Smith. It's amazing where okra will take you. So, join us as we explore okra and all its diversity both in the garden and the kitchen, and maybe even on Mars. 

Rebekka
After a short winter dormancy, the okra podcast is launching straight into spring. This episode is focused on growing okra and the upcoming season but there's plenty of food talk to get us dreaming about those hot harvest days. We'll discuss okra varieties with IRA Wallace of Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, as well as food memories and culture. Mark Tancig, a University of Florida extension agent shares expert advice on growing okra and talks nematodes with me. And then this episode closes with some beautiful stories for my dear friend Sidney, who recounts his often-amusing childhood responses to his okra loving mother. 

Chris  Before we get started, we'd like to remind you that subscribing to and reviewing this podcast via your favorite podcast platform can really help our plate to share our love of okra. And if you really want to support us, then check out our Patreon platform where everyone has free access to our growing recipe archive. And you can become a patron for as little as $1 a month. 
-- Music by Hot Tamale--
Chris   
Hey, Rebekka. It's exciting to be back with another okra episode. It honestly feels that the deeper I go into the world of okra, the bigger that world gets. 

Rebekka
It's true. I guess that's why okra pods have so many seeds. Chris, it's really great to be back with the second season of The Okra Pod Cast. So, what are some of your plans and projects this season? 

Chris 
Well, it's been pretty warm. Here in western North Carolina, the daffodils are out and plants budding and growing and leafing. So, it's a time when I get really excited about what's to come even though we're still quite a way from actually planting okra. But you know, it's the planning time. So, we're looking at all the varieties, doing some germination testing, laying out the maps for the field, and where all the okra is going to grow. So, I get really excited this time of year because it's pretty fun to dream and think about it all. And then in this episode, we got to speak with Ira who is somebody that I love and respect greatly. And while I speak to Ira quite often about all sorts of different gardening and farming stuff, to actually have an opportunity to sit down and speak to her just about okra was really, really fun. And that kind of fed into this inspirational feeling of the seasons to come. So, I'm pretty optimistic about 2021, especially on the back of 2020. 

And then I really enjoyed hearing your two interviews, we don't really have to deal with nematode issues up here, or at least I haven't had to deal with them yet. So, I really learned something from your conversation with Mark. And that's always fun for me too. And then hearing Sydney's stories was really heartwarming to me, I just I love it when you can capture those moments, and you did a really good job there. So, thank you for speaking to those two wonderful people. And I hope our listeners are going to enjoy those conversations that are coming up.

 And then there's one specific project that I really wanted to share with everyone and actually invite everyone to be a part of so through the nonprofit that I run the Utopian Seed Project, we're launching the Whidby White Community Seed Selection Project, and it's sponsored by a local seed company here called Sow True Seed. And what we're doing is we're taking this variety that has kind of had varietal drift. So, it used to be this white, potted okra variety. And now it's got a whole bunch of mixed-up genetics. And we're trying to select it back to its original phenotype, that original pale white pod. And this variety dates all the way back to the mid-1800s. So, it's got a long family history. And what I want to do is take packets of the seeds and share them with anybody that wants them. So, I'll leave links in the show notes, but you can get in touch with me and request a packet of these seeds. And I will send you instructions and seeds and some seed isolation bags and all the stuff you need to be a part of this seed selection project. And I think it's going to be really fun and together as a big community, we can advance the restoration of this project way quicker than I could do it on my own. So, I'm very excited about that project and hope you can be a part of it. And then Rebekka, you're always up to some interesting and fun things. What are you dreaming about for this year?

Rebekka 
I just have to say, Chris, I'm always impressed with all of the projects that you're involved with, which of course extend way beyond growing okra. And although I haven't had much time lately for social media when I do check-in, I'm always greeted by your updates and very cool okra photo. So, thanks a lot for that. As far as my own okra growing goes, I will not be spending a lot of time working in a dedicated okra field this spring. I've been working toward the completion of a couple of graduate degrees and it's just time to bear down and get them done. So, of course, I will still plant some okra, but it'll be on a smaller scale than in previous seasons. Speaking about that, I'm actually quite curious about a variety that I haven't planted before called Okinawa pink. I found the seeds in the Baker Creek Seed catalog, where the pods are described as being non-ribbed, round, and a stunning bubblegum pink. And I can't wait to see how different or similar these are from what I've gone so far.

Chris   Yeah, I saw a picture of that. And it really does look stunning. I'm excited to grow that myself. And I know spring is obviously a time to get excited about growing okra, but you're involved with okra way beyond just the growing of it. Do you have any updates to share from your other okra projects? 

Rebekka 
Yes, so I haven't really talked a lot about this. But okra is also the central topic in my current academic adventures where I use it as both a medium and a tool for exploring really all things okra. It's led to the development of several collaborative projects. And I'm currently working on an online showcase, which will feature some of that work. The inspiration for my work really began with me growing okra in a community garden in my neighborhood, where I began to reflect on histories of farming and the cultural traditions of people who sustain themselves, their families, and their communities with the knowledge is passed down from one generation to the next. And over the past few years. I've collaborated with a lot of people elders in the community, gardeners, farmers, but also biologists, computational scientists, artists and friends. Because that's what the okra life is all about, right? Connecting with each other. 

Chris   
That's what we hope.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Interview with Mark Tancig<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Rebekka 
For our first conversation, we welcome Mark Tancig. Mark is the University of Florida horticulture extension agent for Leon County, where he spends much of his time sharing his expertise and passion for science and his love for nature. Mark and I have had conversations about life and okra over the years. And he also came to my aid last year when I had a not-so-pleasant experience with a microscopic soil-dwelling species of invertebrates called nematodes. In the end, I learned a lot and I'm excited that Mark joins us on The Okra Pod Cast to tell us more about these little critters and to give us some pointers about getting ready for a great okra season. 

Rebekka
Hi, Mark. It's a pleasure to welcome you to The Okra Pod Cast. 

Mark   
Thanks, Rebekka. Thanks for the invitation. 

Rebekka
Tell us a little bit about yourself, Mark.

Mark
My name is Mark Tancig and I kind of have this growing up in South Florida mixed with growing up in the mountains of Virginia. But I kind of was always around plants around gardening. My mother, my grandfather, were big gardeners, fruit growers. So, I always had this kind of fascination with growing plants. And you know, when I needed to figure out what I was going to do for a career, I enjoyed being outside, I enjoyed working with plants. So, I got a degree in botany. And I now live here in Tallahassee with the fam, some chickens and some, you know, some gardens I get going here and there. But that's, that's a little bit about myself. 

Rebekka
So, to make a bridge between those early interests and your professional life Now, what does your work entail these days? 

Mark   
Oh, yes. So currently, I am a horticulture extension agent for the University of Florida's Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences. And I'm stationed in Leon County, and my job is to provide science-backed research-based solutions to people's questions regarding, you know, home gardens and landscapes. And so, you know, a big focus for me is this kind of sustainable landscape management where we're trying to encourage folks to consider, you know, planting native plants planting for wildlife, you know, minimizing pesticide use, and you're just thinking about how our, especially urban ecosystems can kind of function somewhat as an ecosystem and give us some of these ecosystem services we get from the amazing Earth we're on. So that is my job. I also coordinate a Master Gardener program here in Leon County, which is a group of volunteers that work with extension to kind of further our mission of providing that science-based information and education to the citizens. 

Rebekka
Which makes you the perfect person to talk to us about some of the things we can do now, in preparation for a great okra growing season. I mean, the birds are chirping, heard some cicadas the other day and the pollen has definitely arrived. Spring has sprung as they say. 

Mark 
Yep, the redbuds are blooming. Yeah, things are things are warming up. 

Rebekka
So, Mark, what are some of the basic things people can think about? What makes okra happy?

Mark
Sure. Yeah. So, okra, okra likes it warm as one of the things okra really likes, they like that hot weather. And so right now, even if you're in North Florida, where we are, or if you're some other place where it's still a little bit chilly outside, you can just work on planning for now. So, one thing and we can maybe talk about later is the various resources from extension agencies, but soil testing is something that we provide. And so, right now's a good time to get your soil tested to see if any amendments need to be made. And you know, one thing that again, we might talk about some more later are nematode issues with okra. So, one thing that, you know, okra likes warm. One thing that likes okra is nematodes and root-knot nematodes, especially. And so, if you've had issues or if you have concerns, with your area where you're going to be planting okra, this may be a good time to sample for nematodes as well and kind of thinking about what you might need to do to mitigate for that. 

But yeah, I think right now just you know, soil testing, adding any amendments that might be necessary, you know, getting those weeds from you know, if you got any winter weeds that are built up getting those cleared away, and you know, just kind of getting ready for it. But one thing you don't want to do is plant your okra seeds too early, because if it stays moist and cool in the soil, they're they tend to rot so you're going to want to just wait for that heat, especially okra seeds, they want temperatures, and they're going to be kind of stimulated to germinate when temperatures reach about 65 degrees in the soil. So that kind of translates it's going to be a little bit warmer air temperature-wise for a little while before the soil kind of kind of builds up to that 65. And the problem of trying to start a little too early, especially with okra is that it's known to kind of just rot in the in soil and fungus, we'll get to it. If it's sits there a little too long. 

Rebekka
Let's get back to the topic of nematodes for a moment. As you know, I had an experience last year that resulted in the abrupt end of my okra growing season. It was my first experience with nematodes. And I'll admit, I mean it was kind of devastating. I remember standing in the middle of the soccer field, close to tears, because you know, for me at this point, I had raised these little okra plants from seed, all 300 of them, watered them, I talked to them. I watched them grow. I mean, I'm their mama at this point, or at least their okra spirits sister. So, I'm standing in the field wondering about nematodes and how to prevent this whole thing from happening again. And then as I'm standing there, I made one phone call and that was to you. And you were really helpful, and you supported me in my grave.

Mark 
But all I could do at that point, I think. 

Rebekka
You answered the call. So, thank you very much. Could you explain a little bit about what nematodes are and then perhaps share some ideas for how to deal with them. 

Mark 
So, you know, with nematodes, they are these unsegmented worms, they are these microscopic, little critters that you can't see them, but you can often see their damage which the root-knot nematode is famous for these knots that they create on the root. So, when you pull out some affected plants or grow to be one of the cucumbers or another, there are various plants that are affected by nematodes. When you pull them out, the nut the roots have these thick nodules on them. And you know, they are a natural part of the ecosystem. There are all sorts of nematodes in the soil, most of them are kind of benign or helpful, but there are some, you know, damaging ones including these root knots. There's another species of nematode that affects okra as well the sting nematode, I believe, and the main problem are these root-knot nematodes. And what it's, they're not easy to quickly shoe out of there, you know what I mean? You can't just kind of get rid of them somehow. 

So, what you what's really important in managing a site that has nematodes is crop rotation is big. And so, what the idea is there is that if there's root-knot nematodes in the field, they are going to attack any plant that's susceptible to root-knot nematodes, like okra. If you want to get rid of them, you need to plant some crops that are resistant or not a good host to them. And that would include something like corn and unfortunately, root-knot nematodes do like a lot of various vegetables, but there's a lot of grasses, it seems like that are not a good host for them. And so, then what happens if they don't have a good host, their population slowly dwindles. And then when you go back and you plant your okra, you know, maybe two years later, after having these non-host plants, then the populations are low enough to where your okra can be successful again, so I mentioned corn as one of those crops. There's also using other cover crops and things that you want to harvest but something like rye or oats, and there's a lot of information on various mustard relatives, so the brassicas, mustards, collards, kale, rapeseed, or rape plants, which is kind of like a wild mustard, those are really effective at suppressing nematode populations. And kind of that's what you want to do on a large scale is rotating through these particular crops that are not good hosts for these nematodes. 

Rebekka
So, in order to prevent other people from experiencing what I went through last year, soil testing does seem like a good place to start, especially if you plan on growing okra on a larger scale, right? 

Mark 
Yeah, and, and soil testing, soil testing is going to give you your pH and your nutrient kind of readout. But for nematodes, it's a specific test for them. And it's called a nematode assay. And so, there's a with the University of Florida, we have a very kind of particular form and method of collecting the sample. And these samples get sent off to the university in Gainesville, here in Florida. And they will kind of open up all those little nodules and look at the soil and give you a count as see how you know, how high of a population do you have? And they'll give some recommendations for control as well. So, I would, I would assume that most these land grant universities, so each state has an extension service, I'm going to assume that they all have a nematode testing lab that would accept samples. And that would be the way to confirm that you have them or not. 

Rebekka 
Right. And I also want to add that once I recovered from the shock of seeing those okra plants dwindle like that, the whole experience became a really good reminder that it's important to understand the environment you're growing in, right? And to remember that nature will find a way to balance things out. 

Mark 
Yeah, I mean, it is the circle of life, right? There are all these things that that want to eat. And we have to work with them the best as we can sometimes. Yeah. And unfortunately got your okra though. 

Rebekka 
Yeah, they did. And I always brag on okra being such a strong and productive plant. But in this case, the nematodes were definitely stronger. You know, at first, I noticed that their growth slowed down a little bit, and then it picked up a little, and then it slowed down again, some of the leaves didn't look right, they were more bugs than I was used to seeing. The plants just didn't look healthy. Although some of the okra varieties seem to do better than others. And I don't really know if that was because of the difference in the variety or because of where they were located in the field. 

Mark   
Yeah, definitely, there could be some genetic thing going on, there were some varieties are more resistant, or susceptible than others, it could be just higher little populations of nematodes in that area of soil. But one thing you know, as far as growing, you know, what you want to be careful with is - the nematodes need water to move around. And so oftentimes, especially in sandy soils, where you have to keep watering a lot to keep your plants, you know, hydrated, they tend to just they like that, they like that kind of wet soil condition. So, you know, as best you can without having your crop suffering, you know, you'd like to get a little bit of dry soil there in between watering to try to not make them so happy. Yeah, that's pretty tough. 

Rebekka 
Yeah. Well, that's quite a bit to think about. Thank you for explaining it in such detail and for pointing us to some helpful resources. We'll be sure to include some links to some of that information. I do want to get to another perhaps even more important question mark. Do you like to eat okra?

Mark
I do. I love okra. 

Rebekka
Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. Now, can you recall your first okra eating experience? 

Mark 
So, I remember eating okra as a child. So, my grandfather was my maternal grandparents are from Cuba. And so, the first memory is the very cool name in Spanish for okra, which is Quimbombo which I'm assuming kind of comes from its African roots. And you know, Cuba has a lot of African roots. So they would use it in some of their dishes when I was a child and I just really remembered loving that gimbal name, but as I grew older, you know most of us think of gumbo, and I'd love to make Gumbo and that thick kind of texture that okra gives it and then when I started growing okra when I realized that you could eat them raw I mean I will say that's probably my favorite way to eat them is when they're really young and tender and just in the garden you're picking and you kind of pop a couple in your mouth those really small ones those are just delicious. But other than that, the way that I like to eat them is you know fried I gotta say Rebekka sorry but the family and I, you know that's the main way we're going to eat okra at the house. We're gonna fry it up.

Mark 
Fried okra is not the worst thing, I guess.

Rebekka 
We all have our vices, that's okay. No okra would be the worst thing. So, everyone in the family likes okra then everyone likes okra? 

Mark 
Yeah, yeah, now I have a funny story of the way I tried to prepare it once and that was I tried to make like a quick pickle recipe. So, I've been you know, when we get our cucumbers in, I found this kind of, you know, quick pickling recipe where you don't have to do all the canning just kind of make up your dill pickle juice and they sit in the fridge for three or five days and then they're ready to go. So, I did that with okra. Now the first time I did it, though, I learned a really important lesson is that you don't cut up okra to us as pickles. Because that gelatinous material ends up turning the whole you know, instead of a pickle liquid in there. It's like a big chunk of snot inside that jar. So, you know, I had to eat all that because the family was not too impressed with that. That consistency of those pickles.

 

Rebekka
Yeah, okra snod is definitely an acquired taste actually in the summer. I like to hydrate myself with okra water, I just dropped two or three fresh pods into my water bottle. Cool it overnight and then just you know drink that throughout the day. But if you let you know the okra sit in there too long, the liquid does become quite thick. So yeah, cutting them up as you did, I can imagine what turned the whole thing into a slime fest. 

Mark   
Yeah, so the next batch I made, I didn't cut them up into pieces. You know, I thought I was helping out by making small little bite-size pieces that just made a bunch of snap in my pickle jar. So, the next time I put them in their hole, and that was much better. And the family did enjoy those. 

Rebekka
Maybe we can get you to share your recipe with us at some point in the future. And perhaps we could even include it in our Patreon recipe archive. 

Mark
Sure. Great. Yeah, I'll share the quick pickle recipe because you can use it for cucumbers for you can put anything you want in there, really 

Rebekka
Awesome, Mark. This has been great. I'm so glad that you joined us today. And we'll make sure that we have some links to your information as well as to the resources we talked about today. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule and for being a guest on The Okra Pod Cast. 

Mark 
You're welcome. Thanks for the invitation again, Rebekka.

>>>>>>>>>> Interview with Ira Wallace<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Chris Smith 
Our next guest is Ira Wallace Ira has been an incredible friend to me since I've moved to America and I often go to her with all sorts of questions and advice about gardening and seeds and really anything I was just an incredible person. I'm going to read her bio because it kind of gives an amazing overview of some of the stuff that she's done. But at the same time, I don't think we could fully capture Ira in a single paragraph, but I'm hopefully gonna get to learn a little more about it in our upcoming interview.

Chris
Ira serves on the boards of the organic seed Alliance and the Virginia Association for biological farming. Ira's, an organizer of the Heritage Harvest Festival at Monticello. And she was named a 2019 Great American gardener by the American Horticultural Society. She is the author of the Timber Press Guide to vegetable gardening in the southeast, and her new state-specific book series includes grow great vegetables in Virginia. And they're available online and at booksellers everywhere.

Chris
Hey Ira, welcome to the okra podcast. 

Ira Wallace 
Oh, thanks for having me. 

Chris
So, it's spring it’s seed season. I was hoping that you could give us just a little bit more information about the work you do and what southern exposure seed exchange is all about. 

 Ira
Well, Southern Exposure see the exchange is a midsize heirloom Seed Company here in the southeast we're based in Mineral Virginia, and we try to serve gardeners we say southerners and southerners in exile, offering varieties that are selected for the Mid-Atlantic and the southeast, we offer over 800 now, varieties of heirloom and open-pollinated varieties, we specialize in family heirlooms. And we are an intentional community, cooperatively running a seed company with a network of growers. And they are over 70 this year, throughout the southeast and beyond providing seeds for the company. And we do trials here on our farm, I get to have that fun. You grow it, record about it, and eat it. 

Chris
That sounds. That kind of sounds like the perfect job. And I'm glad that you are exploring all these varieties. And we've already said that you've written all these gardening books. So, this might be a hard question. But if you could pull out just one piece of advice for the novice okra grower, what would it be?

Ira
Well, less okra at one time and keep it well picked. And you'll have better okra more tender, smaller, more regularly picked okra. That's what I say.

Chris
Well, that's some pretty direct advice. And actually, it speaks to the number one complaint I hear from ochre growers, which is okay sir productive that it gets away from them. So yeah, less okra keep control of it, it makes a lot of sense. But that said, so the next version seed exchange does have 18 different varieties of okra in the catalog. So, you're not making it easy for us not to want to plant a whole bunch of it. And I checked out searcher seed last night, and they had 17 different varieties. And there's not that much crossover there. So, there's a whole bunch of different areas to grow. I personally hate this question when it's asked of me, but I'm gonna ask you anyway, do you have a favorite okra variety? 

Ira
Oh, my, I guess I do have a little bit of a favorite. I like Cajun jewel because it's easy to harvest isn't too tall. And it's really early. And I like when I haven't had any okra for months. I kind of really liked the first one to be ready. Oh, and I met I really want to hear what you think of one of your okras that Jeff McCormick grew that he thought was the best okra ever. And it was Puerto Rican green or green Puerto Rican or something. And I want to hear where you got that okra from. 

Chris
Oh, that that is a good variety that it's called Puerto Rican evergreen. And it came from the USDA and I grew it for the first time in 2018. And even though I didn't label my plants in the fields that that was the year I had 60 varieties and I wanted to be objective. I kind of fell in love with that variety really early on, it was early producing beautiful red stems, these long, thin green pods with red blushing, it ranked really high in our taste test. And so, what I've been doing for the last few years is selecting for a bit more of a uniform phenotype. I had quite a lot of mixed-up genetics, so it wasn't very uniform. But if you want me to send you some of the improved variety, then I'd be more than happy to do that. 

Ira
Yeah, do send me I would love that because he said far and away. This is the best I ever had. And I was like, okay,

Chris
That's pretty awesome. And for anyone that doesn't know, Jeff McCormack used to own started Southern Exposure Seed Exchange before Ira and the Acorn community took it over. So, it's pretty fair to say that he's in and a lot of different ochres is pretty reliable source of information on varieties for sure. He's done some great work himself. And while we're on varieties, do you have any, any fun variety stories that you would be willing to share? 

Ira
Well, I had an occasion when I was first, you know, becoming a seed saver to have a conversation with Malcolm back of the backs big buck down in Texas, and he okra as a German heirloom because he had gotten the seeds when he was in Germany at the end of the Second World War, and then on a mission to spread them all around, giving them free to people. He sold organic amendments and stuff and really spreading the okra word, word. So, I think that's a really funny thing. I said, do you know that's an afro German heirloom? Because okra came from North Africa, you know, perhaps Florida, Asia, but not Germany.

Chris
That's actually a pretty good transition to talking about the fact that, in general, the African influence on Southern foodways isn't very well reflected, if at all, in the historic literature. And I know this is something that you've talked about before. And I wonder if you could elaborate on that idea, a little bit more for us.

Ira
Actually, for me, this really came up when I first met Michael Twitty when 12 years more than 12 years ago. And we were, you know, talking about the kinds of foods that are traditionally, you know, considered African American varieties and dishes and stuff, and how, as researchers, it was kind of hard-to-find references to those dishes, except in a backhanded kind of way. We were saying that when you find a dish, and it has ingredients, like, why were those things put together, and then you will look in history, and you can find someone writing an ethnographic thing from someplace in Africa. And a place where enslaved people came from that area, some, you know, developed, like the low country cuisine that was more related to, you know, that part of Africa that was rice growing. I mean, he sorts of introduced me to that kind of sleuthing or looking at the records of food that people, more plantation owners would talk about wild traveling. And they, it's clearly, they had an enslaved person making that particular food. And then it's very, very similar to what you thought of like as a Charleston gumbo. The recipes that came there were so strongly informed by what was, you know, cooked, and put together in Africa are things that came through the Caribbean, and had a little bit of a change because they got introduced more to peppers that were not available at that time in Africa. So, I kind of think, you know, looking at the ingredients and how the ingredients were put together, is one way to take a look back into that time where it just wasn't written about the everyday life, except Mr. Jefferson, who kept track of everything that was bought and sold in Monticello. So maybe there's more records there.

Chris
Yeah, it's interesting to hear you speak about like their direct African influence, but then also the influence and how it changes it came through the Caribbean. And I know that you have some relatives from Cuba, and I wonder how that food culture has played into your experience of food and growing.

Ira
Oh, well, one of my grandmothers came as a young girl from Cuba. And she and her mother and no other relatives and being darker skinned, the way things were in that at that time, they got integrated into the black community. So, we had like black beans and Cuban bread, you know, the kind that's like, kind of crispy on the outside it looks it looks like a baguette except it's crunchy on the outside. And we'd have these devil crabs. This is that were well I actually she didn't talk so much about them is given these you just say this is what my mama made. She had okay, but I'm not sure that she thought of okra as I kind of think that her okra Miss was more from her gardening in Florida. But I don't know she it's not one of the things that she talks so much about. And she passed away when I was 12, I don't have such strong memories. In some ways, more memories of my grandmother talking about I miss this. This is one of my great grandmothers, my grandmother's mother and she passed away when I was in middle school and thought about that a lot.

Chris
Well, thank you for sharing and I, I guess while we are back in memory lane, I would love to know what your earliest okra memory was. 

Ira
Well, I think my earliest one is eating some pickled okra and scrunching up my face because when some vinegary and a little bit peppery, I don't know how old I was. It was when I was very little, like four or so. But I wanted more.

Chris
Oh my gosh, I'm trying to imagine four-year-old Iris cringing face up of a pickled okra and it's actually pretty easy because I've got a two-year-old and a five-year-old and I've given both of them. okra pickles, which they do like, but they also have that reaction that I can clearly see. See your younger self. And it really makes me wonder how or if your relationship to okra is changed over time.

Ira
Yeah, I guess it has I've gotten a little bit more adventurous in how I present okra, because I kind of thought there was pickling okra, there was fine ochre and there was making gumbo. And that was that, you know, in more recent years, I'll throw okra in a stir fry. Because if you just barely cook it, you don't get any slime. So, it doesn't make the stirfry all funny. I'm more inclined to well to mix it with vegetables other than tomatoes and onions. And I didn't know there were so many kinds of okra when I was growing up, you know, we sort of had one kind of okra and I don't even know what it was called. What because, you know, my grandmother died the year that I went off to high school, I mean, to college, and I didn't garden, accept in the school garden again for many years. 

Chris
I wonder if your grandmother was here today whether she would be totally surprised by what she sees in okra, or whether she'd be just like, Oh, yeah, that's okra. And that's the way we've always done it.

Ira
I think there are a lot of varied dishes than what people had there. But, you know, okra was something that more people ate seasonally, you know, in most of the people that I know, and they the guys that would come with a little vegetable truck and sell off these two sides of the road in our neighborhood. You know, when it got hot, there was okra, and then I live in Florida and it was hot a long time. So, I don't know. I mean, she might be sometimes a little surprised at some of the dishes we made because we didn't have all of this fermented business going on. 

Chris
Well, I guess I got to put a plugin for fermented ochre. It's really delicious. But um, but what I should really ask, this can be my final question is what's your favorite way to eat okra? 

Ira
Well, here my favorite we eat okra is really good fried okra. I don't actually like to fry things, so I have to say I buy fried okra when I go to a restaurant that has really good soul food. So that's something that I like. What I like to cook is gumbo. And I you know I grew up in Florida where we had a lot of very seafood so when I'm somewhere where I get to get a good old mixture of seafood and the summer totally go down with some tomatoes, okra and onions. 

Chris
Oh, my goodness. Well, that pretty much guarantees that I'm going to have to chase you down for an okra seafood gumbo recipe that sounds absolutely delicious. And I just want to say again, thank you so much for being on the podcast. You know I respect and follow your work and love everything you do. So, thank you so much. And thank you for having me.

 >>>>> Interview with Sidney Nicholson<<<<<<

Rebekka White
Every now and then we're lucky enough to meet someone who reminds us of our own possibilities and who leaves us with more than we arrived with. Sidney Nicholson is such a person. Besides his great sense of humor, it is his genuine compassion for others, his love of nature, his interest in everything from science to art to history, that makes him such a fun person to talk to and to be around. Sydney is a teacher, a mentor, and a friend. We are so happy that he has agreed to share his okra origin story with us. 

Rebekka
Welcome to The Okra Pod Cast, Sydney. 

Sidney Nicholson 
Good afternoon, Rebekka, how are you and it's a pleasure being on your podcast.

Rebekka
Sidney, tell us a little about yourself. 

Sidney
I was born in New York in 1946 to my dad, Nathaniel Nicholson, and my mother Bena Graham Nicholson. I moved to Tallahassee in 2004. So, I'm a native New Yorker. Now I'm a native Tallahassee-an. 

Rebekka
Your okra connection is closely tied to your mom. Can you tell us a little about her and about her connection to okra? 

Sidney
Well, my mom was born in Kingstree, South Carolina. And it's a discrepancy about her birth date, not the day but the year. The Bible had it in 1914. And the county had it 1913. She got ready to retire. She had a lot of luck. But she's she was a native South Carolinian and she moved. She ran away from home the first time when she was 16 and moved to New York. And then her father got her back in South Carolina. And a year later she right before her 18th birthday, she ran away again and went to New York. And that's where she lived all her life. 

And she was a devotee to okra. I don't know anybody in the world who loved okra more than my mother. And it was on the table for dinner. Especially, I'd say two, three times a week, because she loved it. It wasn't the same with myself and my brother, we sort of did acquire a taste. But my mom would always try to devise ways to get us to eat okra because once she knew it was good for us. And she loved it. Anything she loved. her kids have to love. 

So then as we got older, my mother started trying to disguise the okra in collard greens, collard greens were a big part of my life, any kind of vegetables, she loves succotash. And I like succotash until she put the okra in it now, but in fact, my mother, very young, she was diagnosed with high blood pressure, and the doctor told her to stop eating fried foods. So, she started making tomato grape to put over her grits in the morning, and over her rice in the afternoon in the evening. And so, I was introduced to tomato gravy. And it was all well and good until she put okra in it. No!

Rebekka
I know you talked to your sister about this recently. What did she have to say?

Sidney
So, we could go ask my sister who was 10 years younger than I am? Do you still like okra? Because she loved it just like my mother did? Yes. So, I asked her Do you still cook it? And she said not as much as she would like to because no kids don't think oh crap. But she's thought of remembering all the ways. Even some that I forgot that my mother was trying to disguise Oprah. So, my brother and I would eat, and we had a big laugh on the phone. Oh, by the weekend ago. 

Rebekka
So, do you think that your mom putting okra in so many different dishes was a response to you and your brother's dislike of okra? Or do you think it was just the way she cooked? I really don't know. 

Sidney
I believe it was a response to try to get us to eat it. But I could be wrong. Because when my uncles would come through New York and they would always come to visit their sister they love my mother. She would make them different Okra dishes now they loved peas and corn and okra with fish and in rice. I mean they loved it and they all ate it. The only thing they would talk about at the table was my brother and I wouldn't.

Rebekka
Sydney, I know that your brother passed not too long ago and that when he was sick you traveled back and forth to visit with him in Nashville, Tennessee. You shared with me previously that during one of those trips, your brother's fiancé who's from the Caribbean prepared an okra dish that took you a little by surprise.

Sidney
She made it for breakfast one morning, she had okra salt fish, which was sardines and cornmeal. And she actually had frozen okra but so which was no problem and she had cancer. But she cooked the cornmeal in a nice bowl and whipped it up nice and soft look like grits almost cut up them the okra but open-ended and cut up the sardines and put that in and that was her breakfast. So, I just wanted to give that story because I was really impressed even though I wouldn't eat it. But I thought about you a lot when she made that breakfast that morning and it was okra sardines and cornmeal. 

Rebekka 
That sounds a lot like a dish called coucou, which is cooked in the Caribbean and has origins in West Africa. And I actually first learned about this dish when I was at a conference in DC a few years back and had this wonderful conversation about coucou with Mary Yearwood, who's an archivist at the Schomburg Center for Black Culture in New York. Actually, she just retired last year after a 43-year career there. Anyway, she originally is from Barbados and then moved to New York as a teenager and when we met and had lunch together, and after telling her all about my okra obsession and what inspired it, she talked to me about cuckoo and she shared with me that she had inherited her mother's cocoa stick, which is a wooden spoon that is used for storing the coucou during cooking. And I remember just feeling so lucky about meeting her and being excited about her sharing some of her okra knowledge with me. Okra got us talking about family and about how we are all connected. Just like our conversation today. Sidney, I am so happy that you were able to join us. And thank you for sharing your okra stories and memories with me and with our okra podcast listeners. It has been a pleasure talking to you. 

Sidney 
Thank you. No thank you for having me. I thank you for the time and I'm very happy that somebody wants to hear my okra stories. I never thought I would tell anybody but thank you so much, Rebekka I appreciate it.

Rebekka
It's been great. Thank you.

Chris   
We really hope you enjoyed this week's show and if you did then please subscribe to the macro podcast and consider becoming a patreon.com forward slash the okra podcast.

Rebekka
And if you have an aqua story or an okra recipe you would like to share then let us know via the okra podcast@gmail.com.

Chris Smith & Rebekka White
And as always, May the pod be with you!

--Music playing: Hot Tamale--

The End.